Kinetico 2030 vs Culligan Total Home Sytsem
I am considering a Culligan Total Home and the Kinetico 2030 + Kinetico Chlorine filter system (don' know the model#). I live in Irvine, CA. The system is for a house with 4 people and we do average around 75 gallon per person per day. We have hard water and Chlorine is an issue so I want both a softener to filter out chlroine. Here is the link to the Culligan System. total home water softener - culligan A friend of our just got the same Culligan Sytem for their house and their parents has a Culligan system for 20 yrs and they are happy with it. The Culligan System is around $3100 and Kinetico 2030+Chlroine is around $3900. I just want to know if the Kinetico really worth the extra $$. Does the Kinetico system is that much more realiable than a Culligan? Price is a big factor for us but the overall life time ownership is very important as I don't want to pay more in the long run. You can have the best of both worlds. By removing the chlorine from the water, you are protecting the water softener. With either system, you will have to change the carbon over time. So why not get a Fleck 5600 menter demand softener and a Fleck 5600 timer carbon system? Both will not cost over $1400 plus install. You will be able to get 20-30 years worth of use from them. Originally Posted by Engelstang I am considering a Culligan Total Home and the Kinetico 2030 + Kinetico Chlorine filter system (don' know the model#). Do you have the specific Culligan model? Platinum, Silver, etc., and size of tank. Also any more detail on the Kinetico chlorine filter? Is that a drinking water system or a whole house filter? It is always hard to compare and place value on equipment without knowing details. In general, the Kinetico system is much better for a number of reasons inmy opinion. Can you state the differences in warranty? Salt efficiency? Water use? Electricity consumption? Resin life? Ect. I can give yiou more details on htose units if you can provide model numbers and tank sizes. Andy Christensen, CWS-II The Culligan is the Gold Series Total Home System. it is a whole house filteration system. The tank is 12in in diameter, 58in high, Capacity is 53800 gr @ 23lb salt dosage per recharge. Efficiency rate - 4657 gr/lb @ 7lb salt. Max. hardness is 15gpg. 12lb of carbon media. Here is the Kinetico Info: Kinetico 2030 Mach Series Twin Tank , 18 x 36 Brine Drum - 10 years Parts,with dechlor,10 years Labor 1 year no trip charges. - 9 Gallon Per Minute (GPM) service flow rate,15GPM peak flow rate. - Salt Efficiencies exceeds the 4000 grains hardness removed per pound of salt used for the California standard.It is 7867 per 1.8 pounds of salt or 4371 grains per pound of salt. Kinetico 1030 Up-flow Dechlorinator - 9 GPM service flow rate. No peak flow rating on carbon media. - 10 years Parts warranty,carbon media separate, change as needed. Originally Posted by Engelstang The Culligan is the Gold Series Total Home System. it is a whole house filteration system. The tank is 12in in diameter, 58in high, Capacity is 53800 gr @ 23lb salt dosage per recharge. Efficiency rate - 4657 gr/lb @ 7lb salt. Max. hardness is 15gpg. 12lb of carbon media. Here is the Kinetico Info: Kinetico 2030 Mach Series Twin Tank , 18 x 36 Brine Drum - 10 years Parts,with dechlor,10 years Labor 1 year no trip charges. - 9 Gallon Per Minute (GPM) service flow rate,15GPM peak flow rate. - Salt Efficiencies exceeds the 4000 grains hardness removed per pound of salt used for the California standard.It is 7867 per 1.8 pounds of salt or 4371 grains per pound of salt. Kinetico 1030 Up-flow Dechlorinator - 9 GPM service flow rate. No peak flow rating on carbon media. - 10 years Parts warranty,carbon media separate, change as needed. That was very helpful. Clearly, you are well-informed on the specs. I see some very interesting differneces here. The Culligan system is very large (12x58). Actually the tanks are 54, I think and the valve makes it taller. It may be the largest residential unit they make, or nearly. A bit of overkill for your hardness. It will work. i just wonde if it is a Soft-Minder or Aqua-Sensor? Do I sense the carbon is inside the softener tank? Is that why it is so big. I ma not familiar with Culligan doing that. Or are theyu differnet systems? If your hardness is 15, that is perfect for the Kinetico and would regenerate every 313 gallons at 1.8 lb. The dechlorinator has 0.7 cu/ft of carbon and can be easily repalced by owner. I prefer the twin tank, non-electic design. Although the Kinetico will regenerate more often (using much less salt per), it will give you endless treated water which single tanks can't do. Also, it washes with treated water, keeping the resins and moving parts in excellent condition. The warranty is much longer and bumper to bumper--all parts. The Culligan warranty is one year on the whole unit. Three years on valve body, EXCLUDING internal parts! Let me know if you have any other questions, Andy I just cut paste from the Spec sheet the Sales people sent me. I really don't know what all these numbers mean. I don't know the hardness of my water. 15gpg is what the system can handle. The Culligan System is a Aqua-Sensor system. Thanks for the info. I will so more research and see what system fit my need and budget better. Thanks! Hey all. I'm in the same boat. I had Culligan out yesterday and heard their pitch. Their Total Home System is a new solution that incorporates carbon into the system instead of using a separate chlorine filter. It's essentially their Gold system, but is sensorless. They're claiming that you get a better chlorine removal at higher flow rates. If I remember correctly, he had said their big blue cartridge loses efficacy at over 4.5 GPM where the Total Home System is good at up to 9 GPM. The price I was quoted was $4,500 for the Total Home System and their RO drinking water system. This was minus the soap they so politely include. I was told that they are making all sorts of concessions for me, but I don't buy it. I think that price is ridiculous. I have an appointment with a Kinetico rep on Friday. I found Culligan to be very smarmy, focusing on a hard sell, much like the Kirby Vacuum salesman. The Kinetico guy seemed to really know water and focused on the product. That was just a phone call so we'll see what he says on Friday. Hi OneHump, Where do yo live? I live in Irvine, CA (Southern CA). The quote I got for Culligan is $3111 for the Total Home and $750 for the RO. All installation is included. The total cost is $3861. For Kinetico Mach Series Twin Tank Conditioner with 18 x 36 Brine Drum plus Kinetico 1030 Up-flow Dechlorinator is $3995. Installation included. I've found the higher the price, the more the pressure. I don't understand why people even consider that cost that much. You will get the same quality water with a system that cost $1500 as you would with one that's $4500.00. If both systems have resin and carbon what's the difference? Originally Posted by Engelstang Hi OneHump, Where do yo live? I live in Irvine, CA (Southern CA). The quote I got for Culligan is $3111 for the Total Home and $750 for the RO. All installation is included. The total cost is $3861. For Kinetico Mach Series Twin Tank Conditioner with 18 x 36 Brine Drum plus Kinetico 1030 Up-flow Dechlorinator is $3995. Installation included. I live in the SF Bay Area and there is no way I'm paying what I was quoted. I'll post the Kinetico quote that I get on Friday. It's very helpful to have these numbers as it gives me a good idea how far down I can negotiate. They didnt break it down, but the total, including RO was $4,500 even. That inlcudes the Total Home System, the RO system and installation. I had them take off the soap kit, which I believe was $275. This is all after Culligan finally understood the need to mark down full systems and discounted your system 15%; ridiculous. I didn't find out which RO capacity he quoted, but he was quite proud about throwing in the cost of running a third line to my hot water dispenser for free. After doing some reading here, I'm becoming increasingly interested in Kinetico. From what I gather, they are both going to soften my water, remove my chlorine and provide clean drinking water, but one has a far better warranty and fewer fragile components. One is going to claim better efficiency, but the THS doesn't use a sensor, so that's not valid. One uses a hard sell and the other talks about the merits of his own product. Hi. I have the system you are thinking about a Kinetico Mach 2030. I bought what I thought was a premium system because I thought I would not have problems with it. I wish I would have sent the unit back under the 90 day trial period but now I am stuck with it. First problem was the use of 400 pounds of potassium chloride in one month! Turns out potassium caused bridging in the float assembly and the thing kept regenerating, but we had very soft (and expensive) water. When the float was repaired I was told I should not use potassium chloride in their system as it causes problems. After the tech left the drain started leaking because he bumped it. It was the drain from the old softener which I guess should have been replaced with the new system. Less than 6 months later the unit stopped regenerating. So much for the relability. Tech found no problem with the unit and fixed a leak between the two tanks. We were out of soft water for at least a week. I had been preoccupied and did not notice the thing was not regenerating every day like it did before, sometimes twice a day. 3 weeks past my trial period I tried to send the unit back feeling I was going to have problems with this system. Buyer beware - the contract is with your dealer, not Kinetico. I thought I was buying from the maker of the system not just a dealer - that was my mistake. So now I am stuck with a system which I will have to watch like a hawk and maybe even manually regenerate as I don't think it is working right. My neighbor buys the Water Boss and replaces it every 7 to 10 years and perhaps that is a better way to go. I don't think Kinetico is built the way the where 20 years ago and sadly that is no suprise. In my opinion I got way less than I paid for. I would consult independent water softener companies to see what they suggest in your area. I wish I did. I trusted a company and feel betrayed. OneHump i also live in bayarea, here is my finding so far. 1. Kinetico Quoted: Twin Tank 2030+Clorine+K2 water filter $4500 installed. 2. GE autorol 260+5 stage RO : $2500 installed. 3. Puronics Defender+4 stage RO : $2000 installed. If $$ is not a problem i would go for Kinetico, but i am currently leaning towards Puronics. If i have more time then i would buy an Fleck 5600 and an RO from Costco and install it by a plumber, But that would cost ~$600 for softner + $200 RO + $600 for install, plus for carbon prefilter $$, should come nearing $2K. unless Puronics is really bad in after service ( by the way i am dealing directly with the manufacture, they are in east bay), i might go with them. Thanks for that Avila. Where did you get your Kinetico quote from? I've spoken with AAA Water Systems and they rattled off a lot of options. They really remind me of mattress salesmen. You can't just get a quote for a 2030 because there are all sort of valve and component differences. They've got the price going from $2,500 to $6,000. It seems that there is a lot of room for negotiation in their pricing model. Originally Posted by OneHump Thanks for that Avila. Where did you get your Kinetico quote from? I've spoken with AAA Water Systems and they rattled off a lot of options. They really remind me of mattress salesmen. You can't just get a quote for a 2030 because there are all sort of valve and component differences. They've got the price going from $2,500 to $6,000. It seems that there is a lot of room for negotiation in their pricing model. i also got the quote with AAA. i have also sent you an PM. Originally Posted by Avila unless Puronics is really bad in after service ( by the way i am dealing directly with the manufacture, they are in east bay), i might go with them. Puronics is NOT a softener and are you aware their required annual maintenance costs? Not my favorite choice, but just be aware of what you are getting into...then the choice is an informed one. Moreover, I would neot get a system that mxes carbon and resin in the same tanks. Carbon can have two basic benefits: 1. to remove chlorine and other elements, and 2: to protect resins from chlorine damage. Now, for resin protection, it will only work it the water passes through the carbon first. After the very first backwash the resin blends with the carbon fairly thoroughly defeating the puropse of resin protection. Also, resin is hard, round and durable; carbon is flakey, odd-shped and brittle. During backwashin g stages the resin grind the carbon up into fines and are eventually backwashed down the drain, depleting the volume and further lessening it resin protecting quality. Even if if didn't completely go away, it has a relatively short shelf-life. How do replace carbon without replacing the resins too? It sounds like a great feature but physics and the wear-factor causes problems or deminishes effectiveness. I find it hard to believe a tank that big can only hangle 15 gpg unless there is very little resin in the huge tank. All these sytems have positive and negative features but I would be careful of the Puronics. Andy Christensen, CWS-II That's some great info, thanks Andy. I think that rules out the Culligan Total Home System. After I get my Kinetico quote tomorrow, I'm going to have Culligan re-quote for a Gold with external chlorine filter. I had the Kinetico guy out today. No BS, no dog and pony show, just the facts about their system. I like it. I'm going to have it put in next week. I'll be gettin a 2060, a chlorine filter that they call UFGAC-10, which is essentially a 10x54 tank that holds 1.5 cu. ft of carbon, and a K5 RO system. $4,570. This is the same price that Culligan quoted, but with, in my opinion, better chlorine filtration and better RO. One of the things I like about the Kinetico system, apart from their superior warranty and reliability, is their ability to regenerate on-demand. My understanding is that other systems are going to have to always regenerate early if there isnt enough of a reserve for the next 24 hours. This could toss thousands of gallons of softening capacity down the drain. Either way, all of these systems appear to do a decent job softening and filtering water. I was looking to reliability as a differentiator. If nothing else, I think Kinetico's warranty establishes that. Hi OneHump, I am meeting with the Culligan guy tomorrow and hopefully he will bring down the price for the Total Home System to $3000 and I will get it then. I am not getting the RO system as of now and might consider later, as the cost of $750 is out of my price range. I seen some other RO systems in the $200 range and I will look into that instead. It seems like we will have a new install of Kinetico and Culligan. We can compare notes of the performance of the systems plus service support. Hopefully we will both be happy customers. Engelstang, You might want to consider switching to the Gold System with their Big Blue chlorine filter. Just about all of my research has led me to believe that putting carbon in with the resin is not the best idea. Culligan will certainly counter that, but I think the Culligan Gold system with an external filter could be a better option. OneHump, Thanks for the suggestion. I will ask him for a quote of the system you proposed. Thanks! Originally Posted by OneHump I had the Kinetico guy out today. No BS, no dog and pony show, just the facts about their system. I like it. I'm going to have it put in next week. I'll be gettin a 2060, a chlorine filter that they call UFGAC-10, which is essentially a 10x54 tank that holds 1.5 cu. ft of carbon, and a K5 RO system. $4,570. This is the same price that Culligan quoted, but with, in my opinion, better chlorine filtration and better RO. UFGAC stands for upflow granulated active carbon in a 10 by 54 tank, which is the biggest one offered in their regular residential line up. Actually, your price is much lower than in our area, so good job on negotiation skills. What features did they mention on the RO? Demand systems can come in two styles. The ones with a single tank still **** the service water usage but regenerate at 2:00AM (typically) whereas the Kinetico regenerated immediately when it reaches maximum capacity. a very good feature, in my opinon. If you need addition technical info on these units, let me know. Andy Christensen, CWS-II Thanks Andy. Much of what I decided on has largely to do with your posts over the past several years. I'm getting the K5 RO system, which I believe you are familiar with. I'm pretty sure that I saw a post somewhere on this forum where you posted pictures of that unit. When I first started this, I had the Culligan guy out and was really impressed with all of the gizmos they pitch. 17 patents on their sensor, wow! As I started to learn about how this stuff works, I decided that electronics were not going to improve my water quality and would ultimately be to my detriment. The Culligan sales manager called my house yesterday and offered to have the owner give me a call. He promised that the owner will do whatever it takes in terms of price to earn my business. I'm thinking I could have gotten my Culligan quote down to the mid to high $3,000's. I'm still not interested. This isnt to say that Culligan doesnt make a fine unit. I'm just sold on the many benefits of Kinetico. After reading OneHump's Kinetico price, I called Kinetico again They say each kinetico model comes with 14 different option, and it all depends on what option. The price they quoted was with mixed bed, and with out that the price would be still lower. So OneHump, do you know what configuration you are getting inside your system not the model alone. so you are not getting the illusion you are getting the best with low price. Or it might be my kinetico rep doing his marketing talk to me. AndyC, do you know if kinetico offers different resin in their tank, and is mixed bed is an option. I wonder why they make this so complicated. The only bed that is mixed is a tannin-softener using cation softneing resins and anion resins for taninin removal. These are very effective. They don''t make any other mixed beds. There are combo units where carbon (or Macrolite) media and resins are used but in separate tanks (4). I don't quite get the '14' different types unless they are talking about disk numbers and salt settings. In that case it would be closer to 32 settings. Let me know if this makes sense. Andy Christensen, CWS-II I got that same spiel from the same Kinetico dealer you're using. When I talked to them, I got the impression that I was dealing with a mattress salesman. No two mattress stores can carry the same model of mattress, that way you can't shop them around, and they can make ridiculous claims. I'm just getting the 2600, as well as everything I mentioned below, as far as I know, the valves and everything else are the same. If you'd like, I can get the full specs of my system. My install goes in on Thursday. Not sure what you meant be 'same'. If the dealer is stating something wrong about their equipment he is either misinformed or misinforming. Regardless, it should be noted exactly what the claims are. Where are you located? Andy Here we go about the Kinetico delear , AndyC, i live in dublin area, the dealer is AAA. I told him i need 2060+chlo+K5 for 4.5K, he said he would need to see the sales copy. I told him if i get an sales copy then i would need a better price, and i said until i get a better price i won;t bother getting the sales copy. Then he said, he would come and explain things to me, since its all different. we had an appointment today, he called me at 4:30 and confirmed that he will come in @5:30, and asked me if i had the sales copy. I said i don;t have it. @5:30 he called me again and said, he left the book in the office, and like to reschedule. so over the phone i asked him, what would be the quote for 2060+Chlo+K5. he said, 2060 with normal resin is $2100, and 2060 with mixed bed multi media is $2990. And the funny part is, he said they don;t sell K5 to the customer, since it has been on the market for 2 years, and they would wait for the Bug's to clear out. Only if the customer insist they would order K5, since they knew this area well, all we need is 2060+Chlo+VX Plus, which would cost ~5K. and also he said, he din;t work for commission. If this dealer is the only option for me, then i am not going to get a kinetico. Next in my list is Puronics, at least he is honest, i asked him about the carbon and resin mix, he said if that is my main concern then we can put just the resin and take out the carbon and put a pre-filter Beer 4U2 I'm a little confused with his stating the K5 is not available for residential use. We have been putting them out of quite a while. All I could figure out is that they are over stocked in the older units and need to get rid of them first. The whole mixed bed issue is another strange issue. That is Dublin in California, right? I dropped you a PM, too. Andy AndyC, He din;t say the K5 is not available for residential use, he said His dealership would wait to clear the bug on K5 unit before they recommend it for their customers. But if the customer insist then they would install it. Avila, That dealer sucks. Lean on them hard and ask to speak with their sales manager. I'm emailing a copy of my contract to you. I asked my dealer why AAA insists on pretending their are millions of options on each tank. He said there are two on something like the 2060. One has to do with something I think he called dual flow, which can increase flow, but is not recommended. The other is the standard config that I have. I would stop dealing with this guy and deal with the sales manager. Show him my contract, tell him that's what you want or you'll find it elsewhere. The two flow configurations are standard (one tank in service, the other on standby) and overdrive. The overdrive works with both tanks in service except during regeneration. The flow rate doubles -+ but the total compensated hardness halves-+ for each disk. The 2060 and 2100 models come with this option. I would like to hear what the 'bugs' are. This is a very reliable unit. Andy Thanks OneHump. even with OneHump's sales contract i am thinking, should i go forward with AAA, then what about service. here is what i found in yelp about AAA. Kinetico AAA Water Systems - Concord, CA It's a shame that dealer sucks. I'm not sure I'd do it either. My system went in today. So far so good. Hello. I am new, my 1st post. I have read this post, and would like to find out: 1. What did you guys finally decide to install 2. How much did you pay 3. Who did the install - dealer etc. I live in Pleasanton, CA and moving to San Ramon. It seems the water quality around here is quire questionable. I would like to put something in my new home that I am building. Thanks. From the post by people here, it seems that in one area, there is only one Kinetico dealer. Andy, is this true? And this lead to bad service and high price. hi there... i am new with ater softener...never had to buy one till noww...help to pick which one to go with....either the Ecowater, Kinetico or Culligan....what are the pro and cons? i live in orange county, ca with hardness water of 18. So far here is what i go quoted... 1. Culligan Medallist + Culligan R/O = $1999 installed 2. Ecowater ERR3500 + Eco R/O = $4800 installed 3. Kinetico 2030+chlorine+K5 r/o = $5K installeMany say not to go with Culligan since they are junk and after warranty expires need many service call since made in China. I am open to other brands and suggestions. Want a system that would last and worth the money. Thanks Look to see if either there is an independent dealer in your area or look on line.. 18grains is hard, but what about the number of bedrooms and bathrooms and number of people in the home or could be in the home in the future? Just as a side note, local culligan dealer here has closed their doors.... they are no long in business.. OneHump and Avila, What system did you guys end up getting? How is it working? I'm currently looking into Kinetico and Puronics. Kinetico 2030(resin) + 1030(carbon) + K5 RO is about $5500, that is what AAA quote me. I don't know how I can get a good system and don't feel like paying too much. Your advise will be very appreciated not to go with Culligan since they are junk and after warranty expires need many service call since made in China Not sure who is throwing that out there, but Culligan is not Made in China. They do have some parts these days that are assembled in China, but not everything. Only a couple parts as far as I have seen. Sounds like someone might be talking out of the side of their mouth. Can anyone provide feedback on rent/lease units. I am in the early stages of negotiating with Culligan and Kinetico. Well water with iron staining everywhere! Thanks in advance any feedback. Kevin
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